「云德访谈」精英律师｜刘会利—平凡到卓越，资深法官有话说

本期嘉宾—刘会利

原新城区人民法院副院长

人物介绍

刘会利，曾学商业会计，汉语言文学，西北政法大学在职法律硕士。退休前系新城区人民法院副院长，二级高级法官。曾分管民商事、行政审判和审判监督庭工作，审理和参与审理民商事案件3600多件，审理过有重大影响的宝马彩票纠纷等案件，曾担任西安中级人民法院医疗纠纷案件，农村经济组织成员分配课题组成员，发表：《农村集体经济组织成员资格认定及分配方式之浅见》《严格规则与司法正义》《现行体制下法院内部改革的思考和建议》等数十篇实务应用性调研文章。获西安市中院裁判方法论等年度调研一等奖两次。退休前曾多次受邀参与西北政法大学研究生院、西工大法学院案例教学指导和点评工作。

Liu Huili，studied business accounting, Chinese language and literature, and received a masters degree in law from Northwest University of Politics and Law. Before his retirement, he was vice-president of the New Town Peoples Court and a second-class senior judge. He has been in charge of civil and commercial affairs, administrative trials and the work of trial supervision courts. He participating in the trial of more than 3,600 civil and commercial cases, having tried influential BMW lottery disputes and other cases. He has served as a member of the research group on medical dispute cases and distribution of members of rural economic organizations in Xian Intermediate Peoples Court, and has published dozens of practical research articles such as “Opinions on Membership Identification and Distribution Methods of Rural Collective Economic Organizations”, “Strict Rules and Judicial Justice” and “Thoughts and Suggestions on Internal Reform of Courts under the Current System”. He awarded the first prize twice in the annual research on the methodology of judges in Xian Intermediate Peoples Court. Before his retirement, he was invited to participate in the case teaching guidance and comment work of Northwest University of Politics and Law and the Law School of Polytechnical University many times.

采访ing

Q:感谢刘院长百忙之中参加云德律师学院首届院长论坛，想请您谈一谈您对参加本次论坛以及对论坛主题“精英律师研讨会—从平凡走向卓越”的感受。

Q: Thank President Liu for attending the first Deans Forum of Yunde Law College in spite of your busy schedule. I would like to ask you to talk about your feelings about attending this forum and the theme of the forum, “Elite Lawyers Seminar-From Ordinary to Excellence”.

A: 来到云德，看到的是一帮年轻人的理想，眼界，情怀。云德汇聚了许多青年才俊，这段时间的参与，见证了他们从平凡向卓越的努力过程和努力的细节。丁主任能获得陕西十大法治人物称号，足以说明他带领的云德律所在培养年轻人成长方面是能够代表律师行业的，所以我们说要奋斗就会有牺牲，云德律所每周五下午主题培训、周六模拟辩论，他们用这一天半的时间在学习，让自己走向未来的卓越。被这些年轻人激励，感动，愿为他们的努力喝彩。

A: When I came to Yunde Law Firm, I saw the ideals, horizons and feelings of a group of young lawyers. Yunde Law Firm has brought together many young talents. Their participation during this period witnessed the process and details of their efforts from ordinary to outstanding. Director Ding can award the title of Shaanxis Top Ten Rule of Law Figures, It is enough to show that the law firm led by him can represent the lawyer industry in training young people to grow up. Therefore, we say that if we want to struggle, there will be sacrifices. The law firm conducts thematic training every Friday afternoon and mock debates on Saturday. They spend one and a half days studying and making themselves outstanding in the future. Inspired and moved by these young people, they are willing to applaud their efforts.

Q:刘院长从事审判实务工作30年，对于法律界的法官同行、律师等应该有更不一样的认识，想请您从法官的视角跟我们谈一谈您眼中的“精英法官”和“精英律师”，好吗？

Q: President Liu has been engaged in trial practice for 30 years. You should have a different understanding of your colleagues and lawyers in the legal field. Would you like to talk to us about what you think as “elite judges” and “elite lawyers” from the perspective of judges?

A:精英是指社会的成功人士，他们在能力、素养等诸方面超群，是推动社会发展变革的主要动力。行业精英当然指在某一行业中的佼佼者。法官的主要工作是审判，是定纷止争，但法律的滞后性永远不能适应鲜活的生活，当一个纠纷既无法可依，亦无政策可循的情况下就需要法官的创造性，面对疑难案件或问题案件，法官运用智慧在有限的法律精神中发现一些蕴含的意义做出判决，既能说服当事人，也能说服同行，社会公众看了也认为公平。因为审判是一种很专业的智力活动，这种有创造性的法官就是法官中的精英，因为他不仅解决了纠纷，也为立法者提供了借鉴。目前的法官员额制就是推进法官精英化的一个重大改革。

A: Elite refers to the successful people in society. They are superior in ability, accomplishment and other aspects and are the main driving force for social development and change. Industry elites, of course, refer to those who are outstanding in a certain industry. The main job of a judge is to judge, It is to settle disputes and stop disputes. However, the lag of the law can never adapt to the living life. When a dispute has neither laws to follow nor policies to follow, the creativity of the judge is required. In the face of difficult or problematic cases, the judge uses wisdom to find some implied meanings in the limited legal spirit to make a judgment, which can convince both the parties concerned and the peers. The public also thinks it is fair. Because trial is a very professional intellectual activity, this creative judge is the elite of judges, because he not only solves disputes, but also provides reference for legislators. The current post system for judges is a major reform to promote the elitism of judges.

一个熟练的法官最基本的素质是“懂法律，会办案，善表达”，这三点要求同样适用于律师。但精英律师不仅仅是这几点，律师根本义务应当是尽最大可能的维护当事人的合法权益，要成为精英律师就要不断学习，逐步走向专业化，品牌化。你的法律服务产品必须规范，专业，从熟练到卓越，是个艰苦的学习，磨练过程 ，在参与案件的过程中要了解法官的裁判哲学，学会法官的中立思维，从两方角度看问题，理解法官的处境和价值判断。同时律师要成为一个宣传法律的达人，通过接待当事人，参与案件审理等多种形式让百姓了解法律，通过给政府、企业的法律服务使其依法行政，减少纠纷，推动整个中国社会的法治治理。

The most basic qualities of a skilled judge are “understanding the law, being able to handle cases and being good at expressing themselves”. These three requirements are also applicable to lawyers. However, elite lawyers are not only these points. The fundamental obligation of lawyers should be to safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of the parties to the greatest extent possible. To become elite lawyers, one must continue to learn and gradually move towards specialization and branding. Your legal service products must be standardized and professional. From proficiency to excellence, it is a hard process of study and hone. In the process of participating in the case, you should understand the judges judgment philosophy, learn the judges neutral thinking, look at the problem from different angles, and understand the judges situation and value judgment. At the same time, lawyers should become a person who publicizes the law. They should let the people know the law through receiving the parties and participating in the trial of cases. They should make them administer according to law through legal services to the government and enterprises, reduce disputes and promote the rule of law in the whole Chinese society.

Q:刚刚论坛开始的时候，对云德律师学院进行了介绍，您对于律师学院的运行模式有什么更好的建议，请您给予指导。

Q: At the beginning of the forum, Yunde Law College was introduced. Please give your guidance if you have any better suggestions on the operation mode of the Law College.

A: 律所林立的当下，竞争日趋激烈，树品牌，创文化，强管理，是发展的要务。云德律师学院，是律所立足本质，继往开来的起点。培养精英应从法学教育开始起步，严格的专门训练，使其具备未来卓越的素质。

A: At the time when there are many law firms, competition is becoming increasingly fierce. Building brands, creating culture and strengthening management are the top priorities for development. Yunde Law College is the starting point for law firms to base themselves on their essence and carry forward the past and open up the future. The training of elites should start with legal education and strictly carry out specialized training so that they can have outstanding qualities in the future.

律师学院现在的培养模式很好，面对真实的案件，每个人的工作态度，对法律的理解程度，法庭（仲裁庭）的表现优劣略见一斑，经验丰富的律师，法官作为裁判者对问题都看的比较准，点评，指导的很到位，但同样的问题下一次有的实习律师仍然犯相同的错误，有应付的问题，应该把训练当实战，进步才能更快。今后应该和法院联手，让实习律师参与全部由法官组成的合议庭，让他们从内心有种认真的态度和敬畏的心理，练就慎言的态度和严谨的庭审作风。搞实习律师读书会，某个时段内由资深律师推荐相应的理论书籍，然后在规定的时间搞读书沙龙，各自谈感悟，要让读书成为生活，工作的一个重要部分。也可以到学校，让实习律师做法官，让学生作抗辩双方，让他们学会换位思考。

The current training mode of the College is very good. In the face of real cases, Everyones work attitude, The degree of understanding of the law and the performance of the court (arbitration tribunal) are slightly different. Experienced lawyers and judges, as judges, have a relatively accurate view of the problems and have put in place comments and guidance. However, some intern lawyers will still make the same mistakes and have problems to deal with next time for the same problems. Training should be taken as actual combat so that progress can be faster. In the future, we should join hands with the court to let intern lawyers participate in a collegial panel composed entirely of judges, so that they can have a serious attitude and awe from the heart, and practice a cautious attitude and rigorous trial style. In order to hold a reading conference for intern lawyers, senior lawyers will recommend corresponding theoretical books within a certain period of time, and then a reading salon will be held at a specified time to talk about their own feelings. Reading should become an important part of life and work. You can also go to the school and let intern lawyers be judges, let students be defense parties, and let them learn to think in other places.

最后，寄语云德：

在邪恶面前不保持沉默，

在暴力面前不助纣为虐，

寻求真相，拒绝谎言。

敬畏法律，敬畏天地！

感谢刘院长！

Finally, I would like to send a message to Yunde Law Firm:

Without silence in the face of evil,

In the face of violence,

Seek the truth and reject lies.

Fear the law, fear heaven and earth!

Thanks, Dean Liu!